Lady of Regret (Book 2) (Songs of the Scorpion)


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Three young, handsome waiters appeared with a large piece of chocolate cake with one candle burning. Am I in fregado paradise? Am I on the same fregado planet, Earth? The knowledge it held. The play. In that flame, she knew him centuries ago; if only she could remember the dream. You will, she told herself, in your dream journals, maybe in the last one, yes. How do you know I love chocolate cake? Instead, he stood up, leaned over to reach her lips with his, licking her slowly, softly, making her wet, making her want him.

Finally, as they stood up to leave- after another coffee and kahlua, some creamy flan, two more vino tintos for Javier- a round of gritos pierced the air.

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Young woman, Xochiquetzal smiled…maybe I do look in my forties, Javier in his mid-late thirties, young woman, she kept smiling. Before Javier could join in with his grito, come-back, Xochiquetzal ran away, down the steps toward la mar. Loud male whoops followed her, laughter. They reached her ankles, her knees, finally her blissful fifty-eight-year-old thighs, as she pulled the already short bandeau-style, black with fuchsia, beach dress, higher made in Bali, her favorite place on Earth. The wet warmth of la mar soothed her; cooler than the day but still warm, and a sudden night breeze licked her flesh, lovely.

Suddenly she wanted to give a grito to la mar, to the night sky, the stars raining down their ancient light, the erotic, full moon that bathed her, everyone, in her translucent, glowing, pregnant path. Javier grabbed her from behind so forcefully she cried out. He put his lips on her neck, kissing her hard, then softly like small butterflies landing one by one. His gift, el regalo. He slowly turned her around to face him, grinding himself into her, her mouth finding his, his tongue finding hers.

Laughing, spitting la mar, she opened her mouth wide and gave a grito to the Mexican night. El doctorcito. A bottle of chilled champagne waited in a sweating, metal bucket, surrounded by sliced mangoes, papayas, pineapples. And a plate of chocolate truffles, hand-made in the hotel kitchen. It glowed its soft, purple light that made her feel at home anywhere she traveled in the world. Here was this man, this thirty-four-year-old Mexican doctor, simply saying the truth… upper class and at home in his own country.

Another intimate grito; it went right up her spine, the kundalini, from her lotus on fire. He waited. And what she saw at the center of his dark pools of endless curiosity, wonder: faith. In the impossible. How did he get them to deliver the champagne feast? How does he know how to make love to my clitoris, like an old lover, an experienced lover, an upper class Mexican doctor at home in his own country, yes… Xochiquetzal smiled at the peace in his open, dreaming face.

The body, spirit, soul. One blissful human being. That moment. That very moment. As she gazed at his open, dreaming face- his lips wet, parted, as though he wanted to tell her his dreams. They dreamt in separate bodies, separate dreams, but they dreamt suspended in the same sky, the same timeless sky, where their souls simply knew each other.

They laughed as shooting stars pierced their dreaming bodies, as they remembered their endless preparation for death, for birth, always death, birth. Endless curiosity. Endless wonder.

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They dreamt. Side by side. His leg wrapped around her hip. Her arm flung over his chest, his heart. That pulsed. With life. Her heart. El regalo, the gift. They laughed. Suspended in the same timeless sky. Where their souls simply knew.

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Each other. Xochiquetzal … I speak to a beautiful man with no words, only a stream of light flows from my mouth and he understands. I return to my own country. To dark haired women. Or I will. To the light. I see the light. A wise woman. She woke up to him inside her, so gently, from behind, stroking her gently, his arms, his hands, holding her to him as though she might try to escape, but she had no desire to escape.

No Desire. To escape. Javier frowned with disapproval, and for a moment she thought he was serious until he smiled at her. The smile of the boy in the man, beautiful. As he watched sunlight fill the room, her eyes, he felt happy like a boy on a summer morning with a day of play in his wide open hands. When you're not laughing at John Mayer's music video for "New Light"—which deserves to be played at every bar mitzvah until the end of time—you'll be reminded that, at its core, the song is a wholesome plead to his crush to see him in a new way.

Question number one: Why am I crying in the club? Enter: the moment in the club where every single girl is like, "Oh my god, I love this song!

Like I mentioned earlier, has been one hell of a year between Trump's blatant mock of the MeToo movement , his immigration policy that kidnaps children from their parents , a series of tragic acts of gun violence that have yet to inspire action from Congress, and his wife Melania Trump's tone-deaf jacket , amongst many other things. The Weeknd's My Dear Melancholy is essentially a six-song love note dedicated to his exes Selena Gomez and Bella Hadid though he's now back together with the latter.

It's definitely one of those "you'll regret losing me" songs all of us need to play on-repeat every once and a while. Certified charmer Frank Ocean dropped this soothing ballad on Valentine's Day. The song is a cover of the Oscar-winning tune that made its debut in the film Breakfast at Tiffany's , and it may or may not make you tear up on the spot from its goodness. Lauv isn't as popular as the two artists above, but the year-old's music certainly doesn't disappoint. Tinashe put herself on the map with her hit single, "2 On," and has been working on new music ever since.

Several highly anticipated singles have been released this year—the first of them here, with rapper Future a. Can't forget about the country lovers out there. Jason Aldean's single from his album Rearview Town is very romantic. Type keyword s to search. Today's Top Stories. Design by Morgan McMullen. Miley Cyrus. Love Talking About Pop Culture? Related Stories. If I remember correctly, the CHOPPER SS incident provided an example of just how complex a series of events that place a boat at risk can be — and how difficult it could be to determine what those events were without a survivor or hard data.

Still, the stern reached feet and grease in the galley was found to have dripped down the wall indicating an angle of degrees. I think deformation of the hull was so severe that she was ultimately scrapped. I have great difficulty reconciling this UWC transmission with the Board of Inquiry conclusion that there was flooding. There was not in — nor is there now — any evidence to support the conjecture that the failure of a silver-brazed, sea-connected pipe produced flooding that resulted in a reactor scram shut down.

Those data, and the UWC transmission, are inconsistent with the flooding conjecture; they are consistent with collapse of the still-intact pressure-hull at extreme depth at , i. The biggest oxymoron in history — naval intelligence is followed closely by naval cooperation. Please do not verbally attack me. I know more about marine matters than you realize — subs, battleships, battlecruisers, aircraft carriers, corvettes, destroyers, frigates, flower corvettes, heavy and light armored cruisers, ocean liners, T-2 Tankers and the dirty steel that caused them to sink SS Marine Electric , Bulk Freighters, tankers, and salties and lakers.

I am not part of any of your theories. Thanks for the other take on the matter, the one seldom taken up in these ongoing debates. I just happened to be connected with another phase of the sub fleet, the ASW side. It seemed to me there were more knowns than unknowns and it was rather like a tangible business we were in. Anyway, thanks for your missive. Your point about empathy. Rule speaks truth. His detailed paper is written at a level of scientific expertise and the pieces all fit. But fortunately I sent a comment to Stephen on how much I enjoyed his book and he actually called me and we talked about an hour and he informed me of the Scorpion Web Page on yahoo, not the 99 web page but another site that was populated by many and for over a year I got to monitor and participate albeit as a novice comparted to Captains Patten, Bryant, Chuck Jeffries, and others.

We considered all kinds of scenarios. But Bruce clinched it for me with his detailed analysis of a lofaragram that had been in the public domain for over 40 years. It was available to the Navy at the time but they wanted to go with Dr John Craven who developed the hot run theory. Well Craven was wrong. He is a very smart man and contributed much to our country but he was wrong and the Navy bought it hook, line, and sinker. Finally I too believe we owe it to the families not to let it die, even if we just keep talking about it and we go into bookstores like I did here in town and requested they move All Hands Down to the fiction section of the store.

We do our own crew and the Russian submariners an injustice to allow the myth to be perpetuated.

SCORPIONS - Woman (with lyrics)

You will be glad you did. Dennis Mosebey, civilian and trainer of nuclear propulsion personnel for 4 years at S1W prototype and avid attack boat person. You may not want it but you have my sympathy. Years ago, I attended a Navy function where I encountered a nuclear submarine officer who was wearing a tie that had small groups of the same three letters as a pattern in gold against a background of Navy blue.

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When I asked if those letters — MCP — stood for Main Coolant Pump, his response was that I was probably the only person in the world who would come to that conclusion. More information on the Chopper. Here is the full report. It was initially compounded by the total loss of AC and further compounded by the actions taken at the planes control station. The majority of power on a submerged sub is provided by DC from the battery.

However some functions can only work using AC or work much better using AC. The loss of AC was an unexpected event. I have no knowledge of all AC being lost on any other submerged diesel submarine. Hydraulic power was never lost throughout the casualty… but due to confusion was believed to have been lost. Four critical pieces of equipment became inoperative on the loss of AC..

Here is where I feel it is best to explain why things got far worse that they could have if other actions were taken. This is not second guessing. The path the operators followed were really quite natural when the confusion set in. There are three ways to position the bow planes and stern planes from the planes station and two methods to determine at what angle the planes are. First the planes angle indicators. The normal indicators look like a replica of an airplane wing.. The emergency planes indicators are lights that indicate.. For the most part the planesmen over time ignore the emergency indicators.

The planes control pistons can be positioned by normal,emergency and hand power. In normal and emergency the planes move rapidly with little effort by the planesmen. In hand control the planes move very very slowly with extreme exertion by the planesmen. While normally controlling the depth and the angle of the ship, the palnesmen put the bow and stern planes in a down angle position.

This just happened to be where they were when AC was lost. Because of reliance on the normal indicators … the planesmen and the Diving Officer concluded the planes could not be operated by the available hydraulics and shifted planes control to hand. By now the down angle was increasing rapidly.. The planesmen now were in an impossible situation. They could barely prevent themselves from being thrown foreward and were unable to control the planes.

The men controlling the motors. The ship was going even faster due to the angle, temperature change and hull compression. The men did not receive orders to reverse the motors because amplified voice and the motor order telegraph were inoperative. Soundpowered communication was available but no one manned the phones. Understandable in that merely staying one location was nearly all that could be done.

However EMC SS Ken Taylor , knowing the fate that awited them, took it upon himself to reverse the stbd motors and direct the other controllerman to do the same. This motor reversal pulled the ship upward. This lead to the down angle eventually leading to a severe up angle with a violent pop to the surface followed by another depth excerion. For me there are interesting side stories … First, Ken Taylor eventually received the Navy Cross for his heroic actions.

He has now donated it to the Chopper Association. I served with Ken on Chopper in and and consider it an honor to know him. Almost amazing fate put Ken at the Lead Controllerman station during the deep dive. Ken exited the Navy at the end of his first enlistment and returned to civilian life. He later decided to return to the Navy and later returned to Chopper. Ken was scheduled to be ashore that day but another electrician neded to go to sick bay … so Ken rode in his place. In a personal conversation with the man that was ashore..

When I had the ocasion, I discussed the things that he observed during the casualty and asked him his reflection on the events. He stated that he wished that he had acted more propmptly. Lewis later a comissioned officer. Chief Lewis is a brilliant man and an exceptional leader. He had a profound influence on me and my career. To become a Senior controllerman on Chopper you needed to be both very knowledgeable and operationally proficient.

He demanded a level of understanding of the propulsion system far above what I am sure was the fleet norm. He long before the deep dive accident stressed the importance of propulsion and its relation to depth control …. Chopper ,after her damage ,was a reserve training boat in New Orleans. On the day she was scheduled to be intentionally sunk by torpedo … she sunk accidently. During her career … I am aware of four serious angle or depth incidents … 1.

The snorkel induction pipe collapsed due to corrosive weakening … saved by blowing safety tank. During this dive a severe down angle was encountered due to trim error.. Please forgive any typos, spelling or grammatical errors.. I will attempt to clarify. The mk or astor torpedo as it is better known as, has no homing capabilities other than it being wire-guided.

It is a straight running torpedo when not being guided by wire. It has a pretty heavy warhead. The torpedo could have been guided away from Scorpion. The Mk was replaced by the highly capable Mk several years afterwards. If you look at the Scorpions bow photos, the one that was taken when the wreckage was found and the one taken after , the early photo shows damage to the bow. The one taken after shows no damage.

I may tend to believe that the crew was possible battleing a leak that they could not control and she eventually travelled below crush depth despite their efforts. But, that is speculation. It could have been a reactor scram and a torpedo warhead could have exploded during implosion. The way she broke up was almost identical to Thresher, 4 or 5 large pieces. In both cases the propellor and shaft seperated from the stern section and the sails detached from the hulls. Try to imagine the futility and mental agony that the crews of both boats went through knowing that the end was coming as those boats slipped deeper into the depths before implosion.

The noises that the hull probably made as it was stressing as the pressures increased. To one and all who have given me your opinions on this matter, which I am honored to entertain and respect same. Bruce, and John I believe, you two fellahs really know your stuff, and I am nowhere close to your level of intelligence on the matter. The S. I began to have my suspicions about everything. He advised me not to go forward with it. As much as all of you know about this matter, and I do applaud the singular intelligence, indeed, the passion for what I read of your reports.

And I am sure all of you who have ever worked black ops understand this terse saying. But thanks to all of you for lending a part of my troubled soul on this matter some comfort. I am nowhere in your league, and our respective billets are very different, so it seems, but to read the objective and subjective reports you give, all of which I believe the Navy Department, et al.

They may have went in different directions after wards as they fought to save their boats, and may not be in close proximity on the bottom. They could be miles apart. But, they were not looking for two boats. The noise s. Could it have been a combination of both boats? When I come home from work, I open up to this page to look for, and read comments. I consider everyone here a friend now. I can go on about any kind of warship, but submarines have always been my number one.

When I was in the 1st and 2nd grade when we lived in Groton in the military housing project called Dolphin Gardens, my childhood dream was to go into the Navy when I grew up. To see my dad come home in his dress blues and whites was something I could not wait to do. My childhood dream came true. When living there, I knew every submarine that was assigned to the Sub Base.


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I could look out my bedroom window and see them heading from the base towards the Gold Star Memorial Bridge and sail under it and the train draw bridge. I would even see them returning from sea. Coming from sea as they approached the bridge, if the draw bridge did not raise, I would notice on some occasions some of them would sail under with their decks awash. Those were mainly the diesel electrics that would do this. I was quite fascinated by that.

I would have my binoculars looking seaward, looking to see if something was coming in. I would even run down to the river and sit on the rocks on the shoreline to get a better look. I just added this little bit just to highlight how it all started with me. Thank you for enduring this.

Much respect to everyone. What errors exist in it?? A few comments in it are interesting.. Flooding was reported … What words were used?? Have positive up angle. Am attempting to blow. In reality he had a serious problem or was within seconds of having a serious problem. In my opinion, he already had a serious problem.

Attempting to blow also poses questions. There are other areas of interest. After reading some recent comment, here are some questions I have. Where is there present photos of the Thresher with any of the following …. The shaft and propellor separated from the ship, a periscope ejected from the ship or shown in the raised position or a photo of an open external hatch. Where is there indication that seawater did not rapidliy enter the Engine Room? The question is there documentation that seawater was early on entering the Engine room.

Where is there direct records of the report that seawater was entering the Engine Room? Was there any indication Tthresher rose significantly upward before descending?


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  • I am simply trying to locate corroborating info. There are so many errors in the article that it is difficult to know where to begin. Our testimonies were reported to have been stricken from the official BOI transcript at the direction of VADM Rickover, probably because the assessment of why the reactor scrammed, which was — and remains — incontrovertible, was not what the Admiral wanted to hear. Basically, my complaint about the article is that it contained invented dialogue and events. There are a lot of individuals on this site who know more about sub ops than I do but to me those values seems extraordinarily robust to the point of being dangerous.

    All of this is just made-up stuff — mere conjecture about what might have happened — and is no better than some of the conspiracy novels published on the loss of SCORPION. THRESHER was lost because her nuclear reactor scrammed shut down while the submarine was out-of-trim heavy at test depth feet UPDI and unable to blow ballast because ice formed in the high-pressure air system as verified by subsequent tests with another submarine of her class UPDI.

    That conjecture was advanced in the absence of any then more acceptable explanation for the scram. Regrettably, even after years, the specific details of that information remain classified. Bottom line: this is a dangerous article because it contains enough detail to make the author appear to have known what he was talking about when, if fact, many of the conclusions about what was happening aboard THRESHER are pure conjecture and, in some cases, are in direct conflict with what is known.

    Thank you. Very interesting. I am absolutely positive that your analysis of the sound events is correct. I am confident that a scram took place … and believe you know why. I have an idea why even without the benefit of sound data. People are prone at times to make simple mistakes … Like counting sheep … 1,3,2,4 instead of 1,2,3,4 ….. I also agree that it is likely and almost certain that Thresher was trimmed heavy.. I am somewhat amazed that she was able to proceed to test depth in the elapsed time after The thorough checks and at times leak correction always was time consuming on the boats that I was on.

    She was in my opinion moving quickly. The thing that I find baffling is that I sense that you feel there was no abnormal water entry.. I will not try to back you in a corner on that. More on that later. How long that took would mattter. I tend to believe that a properly trimmed ship would have begun to ascend. Even one with a modest negative trim IMO would have begun to ascend. However water in the bilges without affecting electrical equipment could have been a bad thing … and this is conjecture with no data to confirm. Water in the bilges would have free surface effect and on an up angle would shift aft compounding the up angle in a manner the planesmen would not expect.

    Loss of propulsion and being trimmed heavy aft would have been a bit unsettling and would have added to angle control problems. Even if the forward tanks blew more fully than the aft tanks another loss of up angle control could have been prompted. The up angle would have caused the forward air to expand more rapidly than the after air. I can even envision a severe up angle … severe. With a loss of speed angle control could have been totally loss. Again conjecture. Enough of angle would have lead to even spilling air from the ballast tanks.

    A subject that I have never heard addressed is that below test depth times a factor there were seawater relief valves that would have opened. Isolation of these would have been futile. There would have been too much going on to attend to that. I would be interested in any comments on these items. One further question. Is there even a remote possibility that Capt. George, I agree with Bruce. I did a lot of speculations on your questions and what I came up with was very similar to what Bruce wrote.

    Where did this info that you were asking about come from? Who witnessed and reported this? I believe that everything happened at or near that depth. And I believe it happened very rapidly, once the descent happened. Bruce saved me from writing a whole lot. I had just completed a rough draft when I noticed that he answered. He appears to have taken some editorial license … and I will leave it at that.

    The questions are all my own. Having been on five fully operating nuclear subs performing a wide variety of operations for twelve years and I have never observed and unplanned scram … I am inclined to believe something preceeded the scram. While I can think of two likely ways operator error could have led to a scram … many more ways exist. I do not doubt that an operator error could have occured. It seems Bruce is alluding to the fact that it did occur..

    I have seen the likely causes almost occur several times but were prevented by stopping the operator prior to taking the improper action. If other things were distracting the people that would have stopped the action.. If taking the action rapidily , because an emergency was perceived or commotion existed, the operator may have proceeded spontaneously rather than in the methodical correct manner.

    In certain circumstances people are far more likely to commit errors …such as,slam on brakes when firm pressure would be better, step on the gas instead of the brakes.. Qualified submariners are not exempt from mistakes.. Trust me many errors are made … few result in damage or death.

    The Thresher had just finished an overhaul period and likely somewhat rusty relative to months of daily operation. This may or may not have had a bearing on the situation. George, Dr. Ballard filmed the entire wreckage sites of Scorpion and Thresher, the same as he did the Titanic. There is no evidence that Thresher broadcasted to Skylark of water entering the engine room.

    From whom did the direct records come. Skylark was the only boat in communication with Thresher. I was 12 yrs old at the time and I did not believe that then. Periscopes are lowered inside the sail after submerging. They have no use underwater. They are lowered for maximum streamlining of the boat and to enhance speed and silence. Periscopes could become damaged.

    If anything, the implosion that ripped the sail from the hull caused movement or dislodging of the periscope. I believe that everything happened at test depth. Any rise from that depth would have been minute. Her forward speed would have started to diminish, which in turn, would have made the sail and stern planes become ineffective.

    She became heavy in the water and drifted down to crush depth. She was the only US submarine built with twin reactors. She was not in close proximity to the surface when that happened, but her crew was able restart and she traveled the rest of the way to New London on the surface. She had not had sub-safe modification prior to that. She was subsequently retired from service after that deployment in Her dual reactors allowed her to travel at more than 30 knots on the surface, being able to keep up with surface forces. At ft and nearly 7, tons, her size proved her to be too noisy at top submerged speed.

    Was not a good ASW platform for that reason. Trust me … The periscope will lower itself if not lower at the proper depth … You might find that event a little unnerving. The photo is stated to be a WTD.. My questions are quite specific …. Is there absolute evidence that no preceeding specific event.. There is a suggestion that operator error caused the scram … Did something specific unsettle the operator?

    Was there or is there presently evidence that a scope ejected or is visible outside the hull. Is there existing evidence that the propellor and shaft exited the Thresher?? I am simply trying to find it. John, Bruce may have me on the exact time of those S. Some of you are also stuck on just those supposed pictures of SSN in deep water. But did you see all of the pictures, or was it only what was finally presented at those investigative hearings.

    Has the Russian Navy ever released all of its data about all of its boats, as in crews and boats missing? This may sound like treason to some of you, but our government tends to play fast and loose with the facts if it feels its back is up against the wall. I thinking of the most recent example, which is another military branch, given the Pat Tillman coverup.

    Anyway, I submit there is a lot more that went on behind the acoustic science Bruce, et al. I submit not all of the photos were revealed. I submit the Scorpion should not have been ordered to take on that added assignment given her performance was less than stellar, and certainly her depth range was hampered. Thus, to boldly go where she should not have gone in the first place. The risks of intentional contact are just too great since you could lose your own boat.

    Further, it provides unambiguous confirmation that you are there — something no US submarine CO wanted to advertise. Craven was told at EDT on 18 July that the time-difference measurements of 2. Craven is still alive in Hawaii and I have told him why he was wrong but I doubt he has changed his mind. I have published everything I was able to derive, almost all of which is summarized far above on this site and all of that is new information. All I have said to you is that you should try to accommodate your contentions with the timeline that is based on the original Canary Island acoustic data which can in no way have been altered.

    The Navy never had these data until I gave it to them in Nov I have no reason to hide anything derived from the acoustics; indeed, I have every reason to publish everything, much to the discomfort of the Navy. Either Sea Classic or Sea Combat magazines had that story with pictures.

    The pictures were taken by a USS Vogue crewman that was on the stern. I just threw that out there for comment. The Navy then compartmentalized the data so that not even Office of Naval Intelligenceacoustic analysts could review it. Consequently, it was not until — 41 years after the event — that analysis of the AFTAC data obtained from public-domain sources determined that the K was lost because two R missiles fired to fuel-exhaustion within their breached missile tubes. The Navy made no contribution to locating the K wreck site and delayed identification of the cause of that disaster for 41 years.

    Bruce, K, that is very interesting what you wrote. I missed that article. I will look up the K disaster and loss. Thanks for the info. Polmar sorts all of it out — exposes it for what it is — in the book. Not only the acoustics but also the condition of the recovered bodies showed the sequence of events had to have been burning and then pressure. George, Submarines have submerged with periscopes deployed to periscope depth and remain there possibly taking observations or for whatever reason.

    Then if they decide to go deeper than periscope depth, then of course the periscope or whatever antenna they have deployed will be lowered into the sail. They have a video of the USS Skipjack diving until only her periscope and the feather it was creating was visible. Then the periscope disappeared below the surface, being lowered in to the sail. Excuse me for not understanding, if that is the case. I withdraw my comment. See my last reply sent to you about that old pea coat you still have.

    John , it would be nice if you would provide us a little more info on your background so that the nature of your comments could be more easily interpreted. The periscope is very useful even underwater. While to coming to pericope depth, before reaching water shallow enough to cause a collision with a ship on the surface , a thorough degree seach for hulls should be made … The Greenville incident may have been avoided.. It is far less important for that purpose now because of other equipment. Periscopes have now been replaced by cameras.

    My Ole Bud , Willie T. Sea pressure is trying to push the periscope down when you are submerged. As unblieveable as it may appear, the pressure inside the ship exceeds the sea pressure that caused the collapse. At this time the pressure on the periscope is an ejection force. I lack the calculating skills to estimate the magnitude and duration of the impulse so I cannot calculate if a scope could ever be ejected. As Bruce pointed out additional forces are present on the propellor and shaft. In the case of the Scorpion , It is well known that the Engine Room shot forward at a tremendous velocity and acceleration.

    The propellor was restained by the forces on the blade to remain relatively stationary. As the ER shot forward, internal pressures built rapidly the propellor shaft by now was outside the hull. The internal pressure that was building blew the hatches open. The photo is unclear to me. Assume it is a WTD. It was sheared from its hinges which are quite strong.

    IMO it was shut when the hull collapsed and was violently flung open by the pressure build up. In the article that began this discussion, the author states that a simultaneous hull collapse took place and separated the forward section from the Operations Compartment and resulted in the extensive debris to being deposited on the ocean floor including damaged battery parts. I am not an expert.. I feel the ER piston action contributed to the violent motion of the ship, internal shock forces and etc ruptured the Operations Compartment area and possibly a scope being dislodged.

    Cork and poly bottles were found on the surface soon after the accident. This is confirmation of a severe hull rupture. Because there are very limited photos and discussion officially of the Thresher, a layman such as myself, is left without a logical sequence of events. I believe all of what Bruce has said and I respect what he has said … further … I respect what he has not said. While being trimmed negatively was very very likely … what else happened that could have bore on the problem? If it was trimmed wrong.. By the time Thresher went down several nuclear boats had made test depth test dives.

    Surely in those wardrooms the manner to proceed had made it to Officers training programs. Surely the dive was planned.. My primary interest is not what took place in the Operations Compartment during the dive … I hope they were prudent in their descent. I am interested in the likely and known events that took place aft. I am not free to speak freely about what may or may not have happened there other than what I have said already.

    If an operator inadvertently caused a scram were there things that might have, more than normal, confused him or distracted those that may have prevented his incorrect actions?? I am curious what public accurate info relates to this. With reference to the following from your posting but I find that not to be what happened. My comprehension of the dynamics at the moment of collapse is quite limited. Thanks for your comments!! I wish that I better understood the dynamics. I appreciate your clarification. I have more difficulty in understanding the forward hull failure as I am seeing it as secondary event and I cannot accurately assess the flood rate following the telescoping fracture or the internal distortions resulting from the after machinery filling the space forward.

    Nonetheless I am fully satisfied with your calculations and your sequence of events. I am very satisfied with the likelihood that your calculations were done with reliable data and that you were prudent in allowances for error. No one has a good understanding of the dynamics of pressure-hull collapses. The only temporal durations — and derived velocities — for such events come from knowing the reciprocal of the bubble-pulse frequency BPF.

    This is the time required for the bubble air within the hull to collapse and re-expand to the sea-pressure equalization point; hence, the time for the water to intrude to the maximum compression point is half that value or 0. Based on the assumption that the point of maximum compression was half the This assumes a linear event and does not consider the slowing of the wavefront as it encounters increasing pressure with the approach of the point of maximum compression. That said, there is no better estimate because this is a completely unexplored area, one the Navy has shown zero interest in investigating.

    So, you have the water-ram expanding within the pressure-hull from the first point of collapse at an initial velocity of circa mph meeting the water-ram wave front from the other point of collapse essentially midway between the collapse points because the velocity of the shock-wave was about 50 times greater than the velocity of the advancing water-ram 10, mph versus mph. Now, how fast would the ER have accelerated? I think it is a safe assumption that it had to be not much less than mph. Thank you for making me redo these calculation you should check my math which are dedicated to Vince Collier, that paragon of rationality.

    Bruce I would like to attempt a simplified hull construction and the collapse events.

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    Lady of Regret (Book 2) (Songs of the Scorpion) Lady of Regret (Book 2) (Songs of the Scorpion)
    Lady of Regret (Book 2) (Songs of the Scorpion) Lady of Regret (Book 2) (Songs of the Scorpion)
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