True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model

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The Niagara Falls Peninsula has been described as the "narrow neck of land" mentioned in the Book of Ether. In addition, the Appalachian region of Tennessee is most likely to be the Land of Nephi. In recent years, this theory, which challenges the traditional paradigm of Central America as a primary location for Book of Mormon geography, has become a "movement" [] [] among many active members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Proponents see this new model as a way of better supporting the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Kimball, George A. Smith and many others. The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow.

The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains.

The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at least, in part-one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites. During our travels we visited several of the mounds which had been thrown up by the ancient inhabitants of this country-Nephites, Lamanites, etc. A dubious, unsigned document in the handwriting of early church leader Frederick G.

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Williams alleges that Lehi landed 30 degrees South of the equator, in what would be modern day Chile. Many people who support this group of theories believe that part of South America was under water, and that the continent rose up during the major earthquakes mentioned in the Book of Mormon during Christ 's crucifixion in the Old World. The narrow neck is from Guayaquil, Ecuador to the Amazon basin, which before Christ was under water. The narrow neck is the Andes Mountains around Guayaquil, Ecuador.

Proponents of the Great Lakes theory adhere to the teachings of LDS Church leaders, [] official church history, [] and church canon [] that identify the hill in Palmyra , New York as the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon, the place of the final Nephite battle. Great Lakes theories differ in that they incorporate the land of Palmyra, New York as the place of the final Nephite battle and the place where the Jaredite Omer walked. Holley held various mid-level LDS leadership positions. See also the Spalding-Rigdon theory. For the most current treatment, discussion and map of the setting visit: [bookofmormonlands.

Source: W. Embaye Melekin is the author. Michael R. Ash wrote a review of this theory in Melekin claims that his book titled, "Manifestations mysteries revealed," has proven "beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Book of Mormon is an African book and about Africans. My book will change the church and the belief of the Mormons drastically. The Malay Book of Mormon geography model asserts that the Book of Mormon account matches the geography and historical record of the Malay Peninsula.

The starting point for this theory is the claim that a 4, mile journey to the Malay Peninsula, with appropriate winds and currents from the Middle East, would have been much easier for the Jaredites, Mulekites and Lehites than a 16, mile voyage across the Indian and Pacific Oceans with no appropriate currents to the Americas. The proponent of this theory, Ralph Olsen, [] notes several hundred reasons that his theory is superior to New World-based explanations.

The Malay theory relies upon ongoing linguistic, genetic and archaeological research as a foundation to resolve most of the anachronisms that exist in other Book of Mormon geographies. For the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea. But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

The Island of the Sea model builds on the work of Ralph Olsen's Malay model with particular emphasis on genetic, linguistic and archaeological research within Southeast Asia and the Austronesian islands. The Isle of the Sea model also draws on early Judeo-Christian texts such as the Narrative of Zosimus and the History of the Rechabites to position the Book of Mormon as a 5th-century apocryphal text composed in an old world setting, a proposition advanced by Dr. Paul Owen. The Isle of the Sea model proposes that the Islands of the Blessed described in early Judeo-Christian texts are synonymous with those mentioned by Jacob in 2 Nephi These islands are identified in Greek and Roman sources as the land of the Camarines [] believed to be associated with the Malay Peninsula, which was known in ancient sources as the Golden Chersonese or the Golden Island Suvarnadvipa , and the islands of the Indonesian archipelago.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. This article relies too much on references to primary sources. Please improve this by adding secondary or tertiary sources. July Learn how and when to remove this template message. Prophets and people. Historical authenticity and criticism. Main article: Heartland Model. Book of Mormon portal Latter-day Saints portal. When asked to review a map showing the supposed landing place of Lehi's company, President Joseph F. Smith declared that the 'Lord had not yet revealed it' Cannon, p. In , Anthony W. Ivins, counselor in the First Presidency, added, 'There has never been anything yet set forth that definitely settles that question [of Book of Mormon geography].

We are just waiting until we discover the truth" CR, Apr. While the Church does not currently take an official position with regard to location of geographical places, the authorities do not discourage private efforts to deal with the subject Cannon. Cannon First Counselor in the First Presidency , had expressed his concern that children might "be permitted to conceive incorrect ideas concerning the location of the lands inhabited by the Nephites" from "agencies which are unreliable". Cannon, George Q. The book itself does not give us this information, but there is not doubt of its correctness.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith , p. The popular LDS work quotes an unsigned Times and Seasons article that was published during a "short season" when the official editor of the newspaper Joseph Smith was publicly absent. Times and Season , Sept. See pp. Whereas "sea west" meaning "sea" on the "west" is not capitalized. Implicitly, there was a "sea" east of Bountiful. The original and academically accepted setting for the Book of Mormon therefore treats the mound-builders of North America. Stephens in fact discusses "American antiquities" in "our own country" the United States and lists among other things, "mounds and fortifications".

I am not responsible for the publication, or arrangement of the former paper; the matter did not come under my supervision. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Ramah. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, 'by interpretation, is large or to exceed all. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York I sit here scratching my head how this does not absolutely make what you are saying irrational.

I feel strongly that you guys are saying irrational things about it not being in America. You are being irrational to assume there is any possibility that it is outside of America. Various possibilities and plausible things exist in America as settings. That is a fact. SteveS 19 , Hawkgrrrl and others pointed to the concept of mistranslation by Joseph, and I want to make an argument against mistranslation.

There are numerous disclaimers made in the Book of Mormon about the frailties of men in using language to communicate the things of God. While I agree this is a good and useful tool in all scripture study, I want to show where I think it breaks down. Now Meso proponents love to point out that mountain goats were indigenous to America, and could well substitute for sheep.

However, the Native Americans never had flocks of Mountain goats. It also kills the fiction argument of Doug, by providing a much more reasonable explanation. MH, you are being silly. I tire of this nonsensical battle. Any truly reasonable person would not belabor this particular point. He also said that the bfulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;. MH, Ive decided I really am done now. You are impossible.

Thanks for the nice parting shots, but I wish you well. Joseph Smith, down to current Prophets have made these points. They have referenced the Lamanites while speaking in conferences throughout South America. They have sanctioned film productions which seem to tie the Lamanites to the Mayans. We have early missions to the Lamanites throughout North America. We have Zelph, who was a commander in the last great battle of the Lamanite army.

Brigham Young taught that Moroni visited Manti Utah. If I were conspiracy theory prone, I would say that you are feigning your open mindedness towards the idea of the Malay thing. I truly believe that the originator of the Malay proposition does not believe in Book of Mormon historicity. I agree with everything you said in Joseph Smith also believed in a Hemispheric Model, which Ed rejects.

If we are going to believe everything Joseph said, then we can only be open to the Hemispheric model, and all other models Meso, Great Lakes, Malay are bogus. As Ed pointed out with his list of scriptures, we Latter-Day Saints have always interpreted those scriptures to mean America. Certainly Joseph Smith did.

I want to make one other point. Joseph said lots of contradictory things on BoM geography. I was talking to Voni on the phone last night. She gave Pres Monson a copy of the theory. Perhaps she will quote the letter here. On a serious note I see your point about considering all alternatives. For what it is worth I am real interested on your forthcoming Book of Mormon authorship post.

See Mormon 2. There is no need to shoehorn Moroni into New York. Hundreds of years took place in between, and it is not unreasonable that some other people 3 Nephites? Olsen does claim that the posterity of Nephi did in fact end up in America. Yes, the Cumorah thing always bothered me. The Hill Cumorah Pageant, etc. For me, this riddle requires further light and knowledge or it will forever remain unanswered. So, what do the prophets say?

Official LDS Essay on Book of Mormon and DNA Studies, Annotated

Having spoken with many BOM prophets personally, I give his opinion the most weight. As 99 noted B. He also claimed the Gadianton Robbers roamed the Wasatch mountains. I was stumped by an investigator on my mission who asked me where the stone box was. I wish I could now see the look on my face then. I care, and would be interested in researching based on any leads you can provide. Is that source easily referenceable as well?

O sea in other words , there was no border between the United States in Mexico in book of Mormon times, and these are artificial dividing lines in our day. It is a common mistake of Limited Great Lakes theorists to interpret the scriptures for the pilgrims, Columbus, etc. After all, Columbus landed in the Carribean, and the Spanish went south.

Thats why its so critical that we use the Book of Mormon text and other scriptural texts and dispense with all else. Early leaders speculated on LOTS of things, and we pick and choose which ones we want to continue to believe and which ones we want to release. He says clearly that the text itself supports MANY migrations from the original land of settlement, and he is correct.

The Book of Alma talks about multiple, large voyages to other lands. When it comes down to it, the only thing that really is different when it comes to population patterns between the classic view and the Malay theory is the order of the migrations. Iow, the classic view posits that the BofM people started after the initial sea voyage somewhere in the Americas and ended up spreading westward to populate the isles of the sea, while the Malay theory posits that the BofM people started after the initial sea voyage in Malaysia and ended up spreading eastward to populate the isles of the sea — which, in their view, would have included the Americas, since even much later Europeans viewed them as islands.

Again, we are discussing more the ORDER of the overall migration than the end result of the overall migration — and that gets lost in the arguing over the designation of America as the land of promise. It incorporates it and accepts it as legitimate. Excellent points Ray why would it all have to be in America. Part who landedin America would work too. The more I hear about this Malay thing the more logical it sounds. Were you fooling?

One of the whole points of the Malay idea is to avoid 10, plus mile crossings in favor of shorter crossings. My other criticisms of Malay are more specialized and no one has mentioned them in this thread. Mormon is a general as well as a prophet. Most of the geographical information he gives about the Nephite and Lamanite lands come in the context of the military role, not primarily the prophetic one.

The Malay peninsula is totally unsuited for the campaigns he describes. He commands an inland power that depends on interior lines of communications to keep from being overwhelmed by a numerically superior enemy. Indeed, the significance of the missionary journeys to the Zoramites lies in part because they occupy the eastern edge of the Nephite strategic defenses; their defection opens a supplyable base for assault on the Nephite heartlands, leading to the need for strongholds in the east.

In Malay development has to occur along the coast first, the way it did in the 13 American colonies. In Alma, they are used only for VIP transport and possibly important military couriers some messengers move suspiciously faster than the armies they report about. In the years before the Crucificion, when the Nephites adopt a scorched-earth withdrawal to Zarahemla, the chariots are pulled behind the fortifications and the horses to pull them are considered more valuable as additional food than weapons systems.

I am going to try and be diplomatic about this. I think every Mormon finds themselves staring at their feet the first time they hear this story, because it just sounds absurd. The book itself is said to be the product of a revelation, ie divine translation. This is one of the biggest cases of throwing the baby out with the bath water that I can think of.

This is where the Zelph account comes in. If you undermind Zelph, you ultimately challenge The Book of Mormon. If anything, Joseph own ignorance of the very work he produced strengthens the case that was a translator, not an author. Just to say it again, the actual theory is based on island hopping — as is the Meso theory, only in reverse. Also, I never said all or even most dissenters left and sailed elsewhere.

I have long wondered what might be written in the two thirds of the Book of Mormon that were not translated and are still sealed. To me it is the key to the answer! Maybe something happened and he had to run for his life and he took the plates with him to keep them safe from the Lamanites, left the land with some other people he found who had a ship and eventually ended up in New York State in America!!!

It could say anything!!! I am so excited to read the discussion on this!!! I think the Maylay Theory is incredible because it has actual evidence found on this earth to support it instead of just some made up guesses where no evidence has been found. It is awesome! I want to learn more!!!! I think I should reiterate one more time that I am not trying to convert anyone to the Malay theory. Morgan, you need to add a. From his website it says,. I have presented papers on Napoleonic warfare and published papers about Asian and Book of Mormon Warfare.

My research interests include the above topics, the American Civil War, the application of military theory, ancient warfare, and medieval warfare. Kay brings up an excellent point. I know Ralph Olsen has speculated on this point. If there was some compelling forsenic data which gave credibility to The Book of Mormon then I might see your point, but whereas that is not the case I fail to see it that way. Am I missing something? Only if those descendants to whom it refers still lived there. Thanks for the nod heretic. Its nice to know somebody actually reads my blog.

I feel like I am in a very small abandoned corner of the blogosphere sometimes. Other topics studied during for school have been mostly East or Inner Asian topics. These subjects unfortunately dont make me quite as qualified to comment on Malaysian warfare. I can speak in generalities and educated deductions though.

Fire tag is right that there is no mention of costal defense in the Book of Mormon. Although Sorenson mentions a principle that the Nephites would enjoy the higher climates more and abandon their costal areas fairly quickly. Based on the map above it seems the river Sidon could still support the strategic concepts I described on my post. Nephite power would be easier to control downstream than it would upstream.

And Bountiful being an important entry way to the Ocean and a gate for an upriver strike read: easier, faster, more deadly at Zarahemla would help explain the fascination with that city and the narrow neck of land. And the city themselves could be the costal fortifications. Chinese ships were often nothing more than floating siege towers, and their cities operated as vital choke points. So an invansion may have been more hassle by sailing south, then around, then trying to have an ancient D-Day, than simply moving rapidly to the North.

The militarized trading missions I discussed would also carry more weight. The Chinese had treasure fleets that ranged across the Pacific during the Early Ming Dynasty, the Nephites after Hagoth could have had a more primitive version. Based on the map the garrison city of Moroni was also placed at a probable vital river crossing. Again that matches my tentative thesis. I think it was unimportant, because many ancient societies never thought in terms of naval AND land warfare. They simply thought about warfare, and naval matters, were always thought of supplemental. Medieval Chinese historians always thought of Navies as adjuncts to the land forces, or just land battles that happen to float.

Mormons love affair with Captain Moroni absorbed much of the direct discussion of warfare. I do agree that Chariots were not used in combat. The argument for naval matters are inferred from many parts of the text. Chariot warfare is not. So I agree there. I would love to have some books reccomended on Malaysian warfare. Because the point on chariots is the most damaging point for the Malaysian theory so far. Anyway, thanks for mentioning me in the discussion. These are just ideas I am throwing out. Chariots yes, naval warfare and defenses no. In fact,I think naval warfare strenthens the theory.

Everything out of his mouth is not from God. Sometimes he gives his opinions. Do you talk of such things there? A little bit of Sorenson since I have read him the most. But I do cover all sorts of warfare topics. Morgan, thanks for weighing in. Cowboy — I agree with you about Zelph. A deal breaker even for some. Personally, I think it was evidence that he was desperate to provide something concrete to the early church members in that moment, something that was faith promoting.

But it was wishful thinking at best. Great posts. Great blog. Now I want to go away and read everything you wrote. And the most important point I want to make here is that the military mindset of the major compiler of the records delivered to us needs to be factored into our reading of the BofM. Their longing is to end it. But that can lead to a misinterpretation of the theology of the Book, or an unwarranted downgrading of its ability to transform and judge our modern belief systems.

My last question here: Asian concepts of warfare are obviously applicable to the Malay Peninsula if the area has nothing to do with the BofM. I believe the theory of conventional non-Mormon historians is that Malay was settled from the North. The Book of Mormon talks a lot about hills, valleys and rivers related to war. Would this impact the possibility of using chariots in warfare?

It seems at first blush to me that the more restrictive the terrain, the less advantageous chariots would be. Before Morgan gets to your question, I want to make one thing abundantly clear. Olsen believes that there were people pre-existing on Malay. So when you say, the theory of conventional non-Mormon historians is that Malay was settled from the North , so does Olsen.

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  • So, just as Sorenson proposes that there were pre-existing people and the Nephites were a small minority in Mesoamerica, the Malay theory has the same supposition. It would certainly stop a zillion hours of combined speculation by the members and allow them to get to other more pressing things.

    The Geography theory is one of many issues about which the Church has no official position. As President J. Reuben Clark taught under assignment from the First Presidency:. Are you saying nobody should do research and try to figure it out? Can you explain a bit more why you think so? Besides, Columbus did not land in the United States. Why is your comment about Pilgrims in any way connected with Pilgrims? It could just as easily be about people in Malaysia. The Malay theory also mentions people that used to inhabit America… but they stopped off in Malay first.

    History has been filled with peple that are just too stubborn to think of anything in a different way. We are lucky that there have been some intelligent people, that can think on their own, to help us discover new things to help humanity and not willing to just sit and accept what they were told. There is nothing wrong with discussing various theories. What is important is to figure out which ones fit the best… Which ones have the most evidences that match instead of ones that have to be twisted to sort of relate. Proofs for a theory that could fit any of the theories do not make ONE of them right.

    In the mean time the Malay theory explains that Nephites were landing in small groups in America by way of the Pacific islands … and the book of mormon does talk about people in the americas AND the sources from whence they sprang. MH and Ray and Voni , thanks so much for pointing out things that others seem to not have read about Malay. I want to read more. Sorry Ray I should have given more detail. The point I am trying to make is their is so much speculation that could be stopped if the prophet or apostles said that if you read the FARM of FAIR version on the Mesoamerica geography theory this is what we believe as a church now.

    So make sure your all familiar with it and forget the rest. If it was really approved we would be told about it in conference is her view. I think if the Brethren said in Conference what you read in FAIR and FARM is church approved and we believe it and have approved it and this is what we unequivocally believe through prayer and confirmation as prophet seers and revelators. It would cut Mormon Matters and other Mormon Blogs traffic possibly by half.

    We totally agree with Darius Gray and Armand Mauss on blacks and the priesthood. Although these organizations have benefited from affiliation with Church-sponsored institutions i. Scholarship in disciplines such as history, anthropology, religious studies, etc.

    Scholars in these disciplines, however, acknowledge the limits of making final decisions about the way things are or were based on incomplete, contradictory, or ambiguous historical or artifactual evidences. Where would we be today?

    Wayne May — Book of Mormon Geography in North America

    Gratefully, the persistence of racial prejudice against Blacks by general authorities was limited to personal perspectives, and not a matter of official Church position. Had it been so, we would probably still be trying to reconcile a definitive statement about something for which common sense, scholarship, and public sentiment have rejected as offensive, discriminatory, inequitably, even hateful.

    What do you do about doctrinal changes for a Church that professes unchanging principles and absolute truth? I think the Church learned its lesson about controversial issues, and wisely tries not to make any definitive statement which they may one day may need to recant. Interesting thought. Why would the Spirit, then, encourage them to make definitive statements about Blacks and the priesthood, peep stones and treasure digging, polygamy, multiple first visions, BoM and Book of Abraham historicity, etc. Thanks Firetag!

    I feel like my corner is not going to be as abandoned anymore. I knew at least a few people would be interested if they stubled across it. I think their would be some Near East influences as far as warfare goes. I have tried expanding my field but it is slow going because of all the other projects I have going on. I have tried to use Asain comparisons to add some needed breadth to our comparisons.

    So you must compare more than one region to see if A our geography model is closer to B the Near East or whatever than it is to C Asia or whatever. So I try to examine the warfare from a variety of different angles to see what the internal message or internal consistency is first. I have not widened my scope in trying place my studies to any particular geography. Although as Mormon scholars should know, many scholars thinking one thing or having an orthodoxy does not make it true and should not prevent a study of other ideas.

    Scotts definition of principle. Anyways, I am kind of rambling right now. If you need my particular skill set on anything else let me know. And thanks for your interest in my blog. Allow me to second SteveS response to you. It would be a public relations nightmare if the Church were to begin making absolute statements under Prophetic knowledge, which later turned out to be wrong. The priesthood ban is a perfect example here, as well as the Adam-God theory. Most of these issues are best addressed from a PR perspective, by just sidestepping them as the uneducated utterances of well intentioned men.

    It is a very delicate process to recant anything said by a Church President, and cannot happen too frequently without serving to the detriment of our doctrines on Prophets and revelation. I agree with Cowboy in Now I feel bad for not finding that Sorenson quote I promised.

    Proposed Book of Mormon geographical setting

    But James, please review my comment in Ray: You are right about the use of chariots being restricted by terrain. Mountains, forests, cities, jungles, and swamps are infantry territory. Plains and cultivated fields are APC and armor territory. Same principle applied back when the armor was chariots or warcarts. However, the open areas do not have to be extensive; the physical limits of horse stamina guarantee that.

    The BofM pictures chariots in a way that says we should have difficulty in discovering evidence of them if can do so at all. Sorry for interrupting. Thanks Bishop I think I get it. Its for us just to be evasive and not Stand for Anything just in case we want to change our mind later on. Thank Bishop at least your honest and candid. James, you are talking of someone who wants someone else to tell him all the answers. You are talking of someone who wants to be commanded in all things. I am talking of someone who was in my Ward who was this Bishops Father in law and has been on numerous bishoprics and has served an 18 month temple mission and his wife who has been one of our wards best relief society presidents.

    I am talking of someone who did an excessive amount of research and is an intelligent professor would be highly offended about your point of him wanting to know everything because someone else told him everything. Brother Jones, I have asked the Lord and now have an answer. The correct answer is the great lakes theory is the correct one.

    Modern science has revealed today that local tribes in North America have absolutely no genetic correlation to any hebrew culture. We have also discovered a cave which scholars are calling the North American Qumran. In it they found records showing how 20, years ago their people got here while chasing some wild goats accross the bering strait, and whats more every ancient artifact in America now has some correlation to these completely non-hebrew first Americans.

    This news comes as a surpise to the Mormons, who just 15 years ago issued a proclomation which is now completely and utterly falsified. All I had to work from is your comment. Your scenario equaled a revocation of my responsibility to figure out things on my own in faith by requiring the Prophet to give me conclusive answers so I will know completely once and for all.

    Your second comment is totally different than your first comment. Your third paragraph speaks of someone wanting to know — which fits me perfectly. I find the trend this thread has taken to be facinating coming from inside the Restoration but outside the LDS. I trace my priesthood authority back to the same dispensation and church organization as yours, yet our denominations have large doctrinal differences, which says that some legitimate priesthood authority failed to hear the Spirit correctly somewhere. Is it possible to instead see a prophet as gifted beyond others to receive from the Spirit by both calling and struggle, without giving him a blank check of infallibility?

    If we demand the Prophet tell us what God simply has not revealed, we risk placing demands on God and imposing our will on Him and the Prophet. It simply goes against absolutely everything we have in all of our scriptures. Firetag—You nailed it! I think far too many people view prophets as infallible, fortune tellers. I think they are men, inspired by God, and subject to the same frailties as you and me.

    I might add that if we simply rely on the prophet for all advice, then we fail to exercise our free-agency, and make the prophet accountable for our mistakes, instead of making ourselves accountable for our own mistakes. I responded according to my understanding of how real scholarship works in social scientific and humanistic disciplines.

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    But your comment revealed that your real concern was for pastoral counseling for touchy issues for which the Church has no official responses. In the LDS context, couple the general perception of scholarly work and a perception that the leaders of a particular faith are privy to the Spirit for making definitive statements of truth and it seems natural to join the two together. Faithful scholarship can inform priesthood leadership in accessing the Spirit to discover the truth about blacks and the priesthood, polygamy, blood atonement, etc.

    Using this model, the leaders and Mormon scholars should be done solving all the hairy doctrinal and practical issues faced by the Church in no time, right? A bishop can and should point members to statements made by church leaders in conference talks, books, etc. Adam and Eve, too, had to patiently wait for further light and knowledge from the Lord. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of THIS LAND is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war.

    Mormon 8. The fact they did not cook their food and required the use of the Liahona is proof they did anything but follow trade routes. The time required to cross the Arabian peninsula is not justified by an eight year journey. Now if they did a loop over to Lebanon, which was truly rich in wood and ore, that would account for their time and the need for the Liahona.

    Moroni was not resurrected, neither was Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. We all must wait for the trump to sound, when all will come forth in the first resurrection. This would have allowed him to minister the plates. Nephi on the other hand was resurrected. What does the land being broken up four hundred years before the fact have to do with this? The perimeter of the land did not change. As I read the text of the book of Mormon, I suspect that Ishmael was already ill, or had been experiencing ill health, and that was one of the reasons why the family stopped from time to time to rest, to gather themselves, gather strength and then move on.

    And when they die, they will carry it [the body] to the nearest place possible. The people who pass through this area and die, they will bring to the burial and buried here. Whether they were Yemenis or foreigners from the north, from Mediterranean or from someplace else. One of the reasons the people felt to mourn is because he was an Israelite, and to be buried away from his home was something of a loss.

    Apparently Nahom was named after a Tribe of the same name. Read it again. It references that Moroni lived 35 years after Mormon buried the plates. What did he do the 20 years after the scripture you mentioned? Nobody knows, but certainly he could have gone quite a few places in years. Was Moroni resurrected?

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    It is quite possible he was resurrected, but really it is silly to quibble on this issue. Regarding Nahom, it may or may not be a hit. Were they alone? There was time for ten divorces before they left. Well, answer my refute for the land being changed having zero affect on where Moroni went.

    Next, answer my refute that Moroni stayed around the last twenty years because he was actively reading, writing, and translating the record of Ether. Why is the resurrection of Moroni important? I thought you were in the loop on that. Here is the edited version:. Please go back and read the context of my comment about the land being broken up. That is the traditional interpretation of that scripture, that it was Columbus.

    Ok, so Moroni was in the battlefield 15 years later….

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    Thanks for playing. Aboz, yes it is a traditional understanding of scripture. It was to be free, was to be prosperous, it was to have no oppressive leadership, In my opinion, I would rate Guatemala lowest of any country on the planet. The people there have been conquored, oppressed, they are very poor, mistreated, starving… So the argument that the Nephite Land of Promise was one of the best countries on the planet is not true if you claim MESO. It works with MALA. Columbus never did land in Meso America or North America at all. Archaeologists report that Palenque was not built until AD?

    So sometimes Joseph was speaking as an inspired person and sometimes as a mere mortal —like the rest of us. He mentions some similarities between warfare and chess where the a main objective is to capture the king. They recruit people in the surrounding areas just like people in Asia did. This can help explain why there were so many in the final battles. The King was not beheaded … He was put in prison and put to work.

    Nibley was so impressed by the similarities that he thought that the Jaredites spent a lot of time in the Orient. He makes other points too…. There were people—Asians —there and the Nephites learned from them. Here is an example of indigenous people on the Malay Peninsula. There were black people there in the southern end of the Malay Peninsula called Semangs.

    When Laman and Lemuel left the Nephites and went into the wilderness they apparently intermarried with the Semangs and that is why they became black. That also explains why the Lamanites became more numerous that the Nephites. It might also be noted that the Jaredites did not become black and they were just as wicked as the Lamanites but there was no black population in Burma to cause it to become so. It is important to note that the wheel was not used in MESO. One reason for doubting they had wheels in MESO is they had no animals to pull a wheeled vehicle. Ray, acknowledge the fact it says Moroni was still there 15 years later.

    Gulf of Mexico. Neither you nor Heretic are acknowledging the evidence which says Moroni stayed around. Where did Moroni get the additonal plates? Leonides, I acknowledge you. You are straining at gnats. Find something substantive, like geology, linguistics, or something else to pick at. Find something like Firetag found. That was a great comment.

    Re If that is the traditional translation… about Columbus??? What is your point? He actually landed in W. Indies, etc, see above. The scripture does not mention Columbus. It could be about anyone. Who said it was about Columbus and who repeaated it believed they knew and they repeated itand who repeaated it believed they knew and they repeated itand who repeaated it believed they knew and they repeated itand who repeaated it believed they knew and they repeated itand who repeaated it believed they knew and they repeated it arghhhhhhhh.

    It is common knowledge that Columbus discovered America, it is celebrated in our schools every year. Do you really wish to scrutinize this and mock historians, LDS and others, just to justify alternate models? William M. Larkin, p. Sixth , the terrain is as it should be, where it should be, with plains, mountains, valleys, hills and harbours. Seventh , it has timber and the types of timber used for houses, temples and ships, where they should exist and in adjacent areas where they could find timber. Eighth , it has cement where cement should be and lacking it where it should not be.

    Ninth , it has unique features that make it choice above all other lands, like a water filtration system, gravity fed irrigation system, continuous lighting, rich soils with plenty of precious metals, minerals and multiple fuel sources. Tenth , land prophecies were fulfilled there including the changes that occurred at the coming of Jesus, the land becoming inhabited by multitudes of white Gentiles, the ownership of the land switching to the Gentiles, the Gentiles founding a new government with the Indians, that new government becoming a New Jerusalem, a land of liberty, without a king; becoming greater than all nations of the earth, a blessing to all nations of the earth, and a supporter of the restoration of the House of Israel, the establishment of the State of Israel.

    Eleventh , a land that was filled with the Spirit of God, visits by Jesus, a state of doctrinal confusion and the place of the deposit and retrieval of the Nephite record. Twelveth , the land where the mother countries of the Gentiles came to make war, on the land and the sea, against the Gentiles. Thirteenth , the place where the power of God came down with miracles in support of the Gentiles. Among the stories are tales of the mysterious early mound builders and a kite-flying youngster who played a key role in the engineering of the first suspension bridge across the Niagara gorge.

    Western New York Model.

    True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model
    True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model
    True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model
    True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model
    True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model
    True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model
    True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model True Book of Mormon Geography - Western New York Model

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